Afghanistan

**Sp00k** · 03-06-2006, 08:30 AM

I for one think we shouldn't have occupied the Afghan territories. Granted Osama is the most wanted man but I would have thought with todays technology & stealth they would have caught him by now.
Just like Iraq it could turn out to be another Vietnam. Such a wast of life.

There's no perfect solution in crisis like this & I understand we offer help & support to keep peace, its just seems a lot of unnecessary lives are destroyed.

I'm merely a novice at this with no experience & have never enlisted in any kind of armed forces so obviously I know little of the practicalities & tactics. I can only voice an opinion on what I see & read.

Before anyone asks I'm not a pacifist I'm a firm believer in exploring all avenues of discussion & if that fails well the options are very limited so I understand when it goes to battle. I can't even begin to imagine what our fellow brothers & sisters have gone through to defend our country & uphold our rights & I feel humble & low in esteem, compared to their sacrifices for all of us.

Very strong topic GF well done mate.

wIggy · 03-06-2006, 11:34 PM

I was unaware of the scholars and WW2 having to happen, etc..my point is, it's unfair to say America had it coming is where my debate initiated, then I began to think of the rest of the world thinking of US as a superpower, when there are 3rd world countries with a stronger grasp of some of the things "our" children learn. It's almost an embarassment to say that I came up through the American education system...but what can we do?

*Godfather* · 03-07-2006, 12:13 AM

Quoting: G_Man

How can you say the Germans made some bad choices? Most scholars agree the WW2 had to happen, namely because of the Treaty of Versailles, or the Germans would have starved to death.

Woaah!!!
Sounds like summing up a hugly significant ordeal in modern history pretty irrationally in my humble opinion friend.

Saying WWII 'had' to happen doesnt seem to be going too far? When I think of WWII, I think of not only German hunger for Lebenstraum (living space), and Hitler's need for retribution over Versailles and all... It was a halocaust, the war in the pacific that had little to do with Versailles and in which millions died, civilian bombings and a second missing generation within half a century.

Of course, I cant prove this but I'm not sure too many Germans were saved from starving anyways! Hitler being the stuborn man he was, never allowed women to stray from the traditional ideals of a wife. They were not used in factories or the like during WWII, thus hurting the effort in many ways.

Personally, I find it mildly offencive to hear someone say only a few short decades after (in the span of society, a short time) that the entire thing was ok, and we should say we needed WWII as much as Germany. I mean, have these 'scholars' not looked into the eyes of a vet and been told they hoped nothing like what they saw would ever happen again? I know I have, it's haunting to say the least

I geuss, after being in school for so long and having such a keen interest in history, I need more explanation as to why WWII in it's intirety was not the fault of Germany, but an 'ok' thing. Maybe Germany needed a conflict, but the Pacific, the Halocaust, the V2 rockets in Britain? I dont know that I could be pushed to believe we 'needed' another World War!

http://www.hitler.org/ww2-deaths.html
http://au.geocities.com/thefortyseco...stats-wwii.htm

"How can you say the Germans made some mad choices?" Quite easily!

This is a whole nother can of worms, but do you honstly feel that it had to happen too?

http://www.afterseppuku.com/gallery/files/2/09fb9c236528efa1afc51f2a590346.gif

Modus Vivendi

*G_Man* · 03-07-2006, 07:59 AM

Yes, I do. I think that the Germans were pushed into a corner after the first world war. Most Germans were actually disgusted with Nazism, but it was an attractive alternative to taking a bushel of cash to the store to pick up a loaf of bread.

Germans, in general, were afraid of the Nazi party. Had they not been "punished" after WWI, it is likely they would have rejected a fascist regime. It was not "retribution" that motivated the Germans as much as survival. Things were worse in Germany in the 20's than in America during our depression.

I never said we needed WW2 or that it had to happen. I said it had to happen for the Germans. Perhaps, if the US had stepped in and kept France and England from punishing the Germans it could have been avoided. Perhaps, if Germany had oil in the countryside we would have given them some aid in their time of need.

WW2 was Germany's rebellion against oppression, from the people's standpoint. Hitler, evil as he was, provided the leadership necessary for such and action. Perhaps, if an equally dynamic, yet more purely motivated, leader had taken the reins it would have panned out differently... more likely WW2 minus the Genocide.

The war in the Pacific??

Obviously connected to Germany, it is unlikely Japan would have attacked the US with out the Axis. They were hellbent on China though and that was totally unrelated. Very complex for sure, but it was all more a matter of timing.

Now, to saving lives...

Hope Sp00k doesn't read this!

The Germans did not bomb London or any other civilian targets during the battle of Britain until after Churchill ordered the daylight bombing of German civilian targets. How many died at Nagasaki? Hiroshima? 150,000? pfft!!! 250,000 people died, burning to death from the firestorms created in Dresden by firebombs dropped by British Bombers. The fires were so intense pilots reported seeing the flames up to 100 miles away. People would be brought to the ground, suffocating from the lack of oxygen throughout the city, only to wait for the flames to encroach.

War is shit. Do not point the finger at anyone. Virtually every nation on Earth has resorted to terrorism to win a war. England in WW2, the US in our revolution and civil wars... Stalin had more people executed during the 40's than the Nazis!!!

The women at home... Not sure why you brought that up, but I'll address it. Hitler kept the women at home to reproduce. The German male population was decimated after WWI. Another factor of their depression for sure. In order to avoid that (and I am sure in some twisted way Hitler wanted to make Aryans) he kept the women at home to bear children and raise families.

Was that wrong? Well, again, who knows. You do what you need to do to win wars, but part of the decline of American Society is due to the fact that Rosy the Riveter never went back home. Perhaps if the women had stayed home and raised the families America would be stronger than ever today. Perhaps?

Your last comment. Entirely Germany's fault? Oh come now, GF. Being Catholic you can't tell me that any conflict is all one sides fault?

Cheers for the topic, Mate.